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Feed the Feminine Podcast Episode #5:

Community Care for our Military Veterans

Welcome to Feed the Feminine, a podcast dedicated to reviving archetypal feminine qualities in a masculine-dominated culture. Join me each episode as we talk about the archetypes present in how we eat, express, and relate and what we can do to find meaning and reach balance.

On this episode I’m talking about depression and how the collective repression of the feminine may be influencing depressive ways of being.

As always, before we dive in, a quick disclaimer. The information

provided here is intended to covey general information only and does not intend to replace or infer proper psychological diagnosis. No therapist/client  relationship is implied or actualized through any contact with this podcast, website or its creators unless formally agreed upon in a proper clinical setting. And now, without further ado, here's this week's episode of the Feed the Feminine podcast.

So last week I talked about moral injury and there was a reason that I put that episode right before this one. It's because the folks in our country, in our world, that I believe most suffer from an intense degree of moral injury are our military veterans. And so I wanted you to have a basic idea what that actually means so that we can really apply that in this episode. But there's so much more to talk about with military veterans so if you're willing to stick with me, I will take you where we are meant to go which is to just have a conversation as civilians -- I'm assuming many of my listeners are civilians just based on the pure statistics of veterans and civilians in this country -- and the ways that we can better show up for military veterans and service members. And why that's important, if it's not already clear.

I'm a civilian I obviously don't speak for all service members and veterans. There exceptions to everything that I'm about to say and yet I do feel a responsibility to use my civilian voice and the insight that I have into the military experience to share what seems to be weighing on the hearts and minds of so many veterans who might be struggling to transition back into the world that we know. Just a little bit of background - I've worked with veterans for a while now, mostly in a clinical setting and most of the veterans that I work with are that population, the population that is struggling to reintegrate back into the civilian world. And when they're struggling to re-acclimate to civilian life, there is a high prevalence of mental and emotional distress, substance use, and potentially homelessness.

Defining, Again, Masculine and Feminine

But before we really get too far into that I just want to rewind a little bit. So when we talked about feminine and masculine, we're talking about yin and yang, right? We're not talking about gender. It's about archetypal energy that is shared amongst all of humanity. So the terminology of "feminine" and "masculine" doesn't imply behavior locked into expected gender roles. So the feminine isn't about being dainty or frilly or dressed in pink, or being a damsel in distress-like, just the same masculine isn’t about being tough or macho or having a nice car or being tall or crushing beer cans on your head or whatever simplified and/or misguided gender expectations we have when it comes to men.

Feminine traits in this archetypal sense are nurturance, creativity, spirituality, vulnerability, imagination, non-linear ways of approaching things, being still, being connected to nature, being empathic and emotionally in-tune. Whereas masculine is about reason and logic, linear ways of thinking, doing, taking action, structure, boundaries, protection, curiosity, acquisition. Everybody is dominant in either masculine or feminine, the perfect balance hardly exists, and even when you strike it, you need to keep maintaining it. Women do tend to be naturally more empathic and vulnerable while men do naturally tend to be based in logic and action but there are more exceptions to this than we realize and part of that is because of the additional socializing on top of this reinforces those traits. So when little girls are given playschool kitchens to play in and little boys are given monster trucks, we’re doubling down on it. We tell little girls to play by cooking in a pretend kitchen and taking care of a baby when the boys get to be superheros. But there's a pressure that comes with that, too, of course. The point always is that you can be dominant in one, sure, but not with like a 90/10 split, they have to be more even than that, otherwise you tend to risk a consequence from the extremes.

In all things there is a light and shadow – the light is what’s loved, accepted, and honored whereas the shadow is what’s disowned, the parts of ourselves that we don’t like and can’t accept. Humans have light and shadow, archetypes have light and shadow, all things have light and shadow.

The traits I listed for feminine and masculine just a second ago, those are the light traits, the good ones, the positive ones, the beloved ones. The shadow traits for the feminine take the light traits and, for lack of a better word, ick them up a little bit. Compassion turns into apathy, vulnerability turns into co-dependency, nurturance turns into control, collaborative communication turns into passive-aggression, intimacy turns into emotional intimidation, imagination turns into judgment. And the masculine shadow, we’ll get to in a second.

When there isn't balance between feminine and masculine, yin and yang, when one dominates for too long and the traits are all that’s valued by any sort of system, a family system, a smaller community, a culture at large, or in ourselves, that's we head into shadow territory. The light masculine traits in American culture, unchecked by the feminine traits which we repress or call unnecessary, silly, weak, lazy, they go dark. Leadership, a trait of the masculine light, turns into narcissism a trait of the masculine shadow, acquisition turns into greed and theft, boundaries turn into force, curiosity turns into exploitation, protection turns into violence and war.

The Masculine Mission of the Military

So when you consider the mission of the military, you’re likely to think of masculine shadow traits. And this isn’t the fault of the military because by virtue of its mission and purpose, it has to be that. It IS representative of masculine shadow, or a result of it, or both. War in the sense we know and understand it isn’t about nurturance and imagination and vulnerability, it’s about protection, acquisition, logic and remaining level-headed. Basic training is meant to undo empathy and emotionality from its participants otherwise they will not be able to carry out their mission and that could mean death.

So America is already a culture in excess of masculine traits. Some people may argue me on that so you’ll find that I repeat myself often in this regard and let's keep talking about it. But America is already a masculine/yang culture. And the military sees that masculine culture and raises it $693 billion, which is the U.S. Department of Defense budget.

Part of the reason I wanted to discuss the way civilians interact with veterans is because of my experience working with veterans in a social work setting. I’ve been working as a case manager at a treatment facility for veterans who are in transition, struggling to re-acclimate to a civilian lifestyle after their service. Almost all of these veterans are of the OIF/OEF era, that means they’ve fought in either Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom or both, or Operation New Dawn, the post-9/11 wars. Some of them separated from the military years ago, some a little more recently, but they’ve all had some impact by the current wars America finds itself in. And in my work with them, I get to really understand what they’re struggling with. We can put on paper that it’s substance abuse and trauma-related behavioral issues that stem from their combat experience which has led them to become homeless or incarcerated or any combination of that. But I challenge us to look a little deeper and see the cultural ways we may be perpetuating that for them.

Forgetting and Misremembering Our Veterans

Even before I started this particular line of work, I was volunteering for an organization called Soldiers’ Angels for upwards of a decade acting as a pen pal, sending letters and care packages to active duty service members who were deployed and away from their families. The intention was to remind those in active duty that civilians didn’t forget about them, that we cared and wanted to support them as best we could from a distance. I’ve always been intrigued by the military life in the sense that I felt a responsibility to service members as a civilian. My grandfather fought in World War II in the Army, my grandmother was a nurse in the United States Navy, my uncle was also in the Navy, I’ve had friends in the Army and the Marine Corps. And I wouldn’t say my life was ever really impacted by their service directly, but I was adjacent to the experiences enough that it compelled me and it made me curious about why different wars solicited different responses from civilians to service members over the years.


Like how World War II veterans were hailed as heroes, and Vietnam veterans were spat on when they came home. Of course I understand it’s because there was political turmoil over the decision to engage in Vietnam but that wasn’t the fault of the service members, certainly not those who were drafted and didn’t actively make the choice to enlist. Sometimes we project our anger at our government onto those in the military as though they’ve made the choice to go to war. Some people say “they didn’t make the choice to go to war, but they made the choice to join the military and take orders that go against what’s morally right.” And that’s an easy stone to cast from outside of that experience but when I think about experiences I've had in my life, there were a lot of times where I signed up for something thinking I knew what it would be like and then once I got there I realized I wanted out, that I had made a mistake. Or that my good intentions wouldn't translate in this experience how I intended.

And I think that is the case for a lot of military veterans. A recruiter sells you a dream. They say they'll get you out of the bad situation you're in, you'll get financial help with school once you're done, and you'll be a hero. Just go put on a uniform. And then what happens in reality is different than that.

A lot of service members join for righteous reasons, because they want to do good. Especially the OIF/OEF-era of veterans. Many of them joined as a direct response to September 11th and them wanting to defend an attack on our country, to keep their loved ones and fellow Americans safe, even though how to do that wasn't always entirely clear. Some join because their life has been a series of traumas and the military seems like the only place in the world that makes any sense to them, where they would have anything to offer. Some people join the service because they don’t want to ruin their lives with student loan debt -- which is a legitimate crisis in this country -- and a recruiter offered them from freedom from that once they served their 4 years.

I'm not sure why we so quick to blame service members for their choice to enlist rather than ask them why they enlisted and understand the human story behind it. Because you might not have made the same decision, but you can ask, and you can get to know why someone would make that choice. That’s one way civilians can do better in our engagement with our warriors is stop treating them like they’re the ones with all the power and destroying the world, because they're not. In fact they’re often times manipulated or coaxed by the ones with the actual power.

When it comes to Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation New Dawn, the first of which started 18 years ago – civilians are out of touch. Most civilians don’t even consciously realize that America has been at war for 18 years. We don’t know what’s going on over there. Media doesn’t report on it, we don’t ask questions, we’d rather not think about it. And I think that’s some of the thanks we owe these veterans, though. They’re keeping war away from us and we’re getting to live our lives like nothing is wrong.

During an interview for a film project, a veteran once asked me what I believed the biggest challenge facing veterans was. I could have answered from a political head space, or a social work perspective, pointing out what resources or funding veterans could benefit from. And that’s true. But the only thing I could think of was to give the answer that the therapist gets to hear, that when I sit in a room full of veterans and try to talk about life skills and job skills and how to get back on their feet, whatever that means, there's something unspoken and pervasive in those rooms. They feel isolated, misunderstood. They don't even know how to even want to re-enage into civilian life, they feel left out of it, they feel confused by it, they feel judged for the burden they have to carry in a post-war world.

Community Care as a Vital Resource

Sebastian Junger, a journalist who has reported from, and documented, war zones, has a TED Talk where he notes that our lonely, individualistic society makes it hard to come back from war. He talks about the community care approach that I talked about in my last episode, the approach they take in tribal communities that help diffuse the trauma of our veterans by sharing it with them a little. And that that alone is the resource. I wonder if we were a little more inclusive of veterans in our culture and a little more understanding to their unique needs, if maybe we wouldn't need as many resources at a government level to support them And maybe if we welcomed them back with respect and honor and really tried to understand what they experienced as best we can, and accepted them for that and respected them and made space for them, made space for their language and their way of doing things then maybe we wouldn't be in the crisis we seem to be in with struggling veterans.

We can beg for money to help veterans from wherever it's supposed to be coming from, but what if we didn't need that much money? What if instead we just needed a shift in our collective emotional energy where we made space for them. I'm not sure we understand the gravity of their experiences. And I believe we have disconnected from what's going on because it's been an 18-year never-ending war that has no impact on our daily life here in the states. We don't look it in the eye. And of course it makes sense why we would turn off, of course it makes sense. But i hear from these men all the time how difficult it is to open up to civilians, to let them know what happened and who they had to become, to really be understood.  


So when this one veteran asked me what I thought was the biggest challenge they, I couldn’t help but first say “civilians.” There are other challenges, but those challenges they face are so pervasive in a systemic way, in a collective unconscious way, and it makes me feel so powerless to even try to begin trying to think about how to stop that freight train. The civilian piece at least feels like something we can fix. Something we have some control over. Something we can do better about with more consciousness. Because it’s likely that we will always be sending people to war but we can at least help help them return from war with more support.

I want to be clear that I am not “blaming” civilians for the struggles of veteran, or the outrageous statistics the demonstrate how much they are suffering. But we don't know how to hold them when they come home, and that's not our fault, no one ever taught us what to do about that. I’m especially not blaming military families for the suffering of their veteran or service member. This isn’t about blame. This is about what we can learn and implement, how we can understand and empathize more, the different ways we can all – whether you know veterans or not – create a society that’s more inherently welcoming to our warriors.

And so I wonder, what do we do when our soldiers come home? How do we help them reintegrate back into a world that will never again feel quite the same?

Indigenous Return Rituals

I think we can learn a little more from Native American traditions where post-war healing was of the utmost importance. For instance, the Navajo people would have a medicine man speak to the warrior about his experiences at war to determine what kind of ritual his heart most required. The goal was to help the warrior return to a state of balance or beauty within the universe. Similarly, the Comanche people utilized rituals to support their warriors, sending them off with spiritual ceremonies to keep them protected in battle. When warriors returned, the tribe restored them to balance with an all-night ceremony which included peyote, communal song, and prayer.

In Lakota and Sioux tribes, warriors returned to meet with tribe elders who would apologize to them for what they had to see and do and experience at war. The elders would express gratitude and bestow honor upon their veterans for putting the tribe above their own individual needs and survival.

A warrior returning home from combat commonly struggles to readjust to the world they once knew. They can easily feel misunderstood by civilians who couldn't possibly empathize with their experiences. Our modern American culture doesn't embrace this need for ritual; for the medicine man to help the warrior process their pain, for the warm and respectful embrace of the community and acknowledgement of hardship. And to honor them in a sense that, by having gone off to fight the battle, that they were wise and strong and people we should now bow to.

We could learn a thing or two from these Native traditions and work together to usher our veterans back home, no matter the burden they carry, be it PTSD, moral injury, physical or mental unwellness, substance abuse, homelessness, guilt, grief, or other common readjustment struggles.


Modern U.S. Military Statistics

There are 18.2 million veterans in the U.S. as of 2018 census data, that’s 7.6% of the population - it's not a lot, so it makes sense why their needs are not at the forefront of our culture. But just because it's a small percentage, doesn't mean we don't owe them something. In fact, it should make it easier for us to support them because civilian capability far outweighs veteran needs. 3.5 million of those veterans served post-9/11 in OIF/OEF. 16.6 million of all-era veterans are male while 1.6 million are female.

The latest data from the Dept of Housing and Urban Development tells us there are 40,000 veterans in the U.S. experiencing homelessness. 11,000 of those are in California, with almost 3,000 in Florida, more than 2,000 each in Texas and Washington state, and 1,200 each in Oregon and New York.

Nationwide, nearly 1.4 million veterans live in households that use food stamps, about 20,000 of which joined the SNAP program while they were still on active duty because their military salary is often not enough to provide food for their family. In fact food banks are popping up all over the country near bases so that active duty service members and their families can eat with donated groceries.

In 2018, the U.S. military experienced the highest number of suicides among active-duty personnel in at least 6 years; 321 active-duty members total, 57 Marines, 68 sailors, 58 airmen, and 138 soldiers.


An approximate 20 veterans kill themselves every day.


Our service members and veterans are in crisis.

Understanding Veteran Issues

Like I said before, many veterans enlisted in the military to escape difficult adolescence. In the military, they were given orders and structure to follow, expectations for what consequences they’d face if they didn’t follow those orders, and they were given some sense of stability amidst chaos. When they separate from the military, they’re left with their first civilian challenge as an adult, to figure out all the things they were never taught about how to survive. Because of that, too many end up homeless or incarcerated, which encourage substance use and creates an inescapable cycle.


Others return home to a world that has no idea who they are now, loved ones who can’t understand their experiences and just want everything to be normal again as soon as possible. Many veterans struggle to understand the civilian world in which they’re now required to subscribe to, some of them are struggling to maintain employment because civilian political correctness is foreign and quite honestly, useless to them. In the military, you get the job done with direct and immediate communication; in many civilian jobs, you have to beat around the bush with compliments and feedback sandwiches where you list constructive criticism around positive reflections. I say that not to bash either system but to say veterans are confused by that language and they struggle to see what purpose it serves, therefore, they struggle to acclimate.


Most of them may never sleep a full night again in their lives. This is just the start of it. There are so many things we take for granted as civilians and just that alone, that we take them for granted, can make readjustment for veterans that much harder. Just acknowledging what we take for granted can help.

When it comes to PTSD, crowded places can increase already high hypervigilance, which is to say veterans in crowds may be constantly scanning faces for threats and feeling unsafe. Driving can cause a veteran stress when they spent an entire deployment avoiding IEDs on the roads of Iraq. Fireworks, however celebratory, can recreate a combat environment, re-traumatizing a veteran. It’s common and reasonable for a veteran to want to avoid places that may have previously loved because it creates anxiety for them now.

Military trauma doesn’t stop at combat or the abuses of power that erupt in military culture. Many veterans face MST, military sexual trauma, based on sexual assault or harassment experienced in duty. According to 2016 Dept of Defense data, almost 15,000 service members -- 8600 women, 6300 men -- were sexually assaulted during their service. Most victims were assaulted more than once. 83% of military sexual assault victims did not report the crime, many fearing retaliation from their command or coworkers, many fearing nothing would be done, both of which are common scenarios.

We don’t think of these things. We don’t want to. We don't have to. I get it. But our veterans are carrying a huge burden, whether directly impacted by these things or not. Because the military is about camaraderie, teamwork, the unit. Everyone has to survive together, you're looking out for other people, so if something happens to you brother or sister in the line of duty, you're impacted by that as well. And yes, much needs to be done to address these injustices within the branches themselves, the fact that people are getting away with this, that the culture permits this, that there is so much abuse of power within the military. That all needs to get fixed and with it needing to rely so much on masculine shadow in order the military to remain effective, I don't know how that works, I don't know what that looks like, I don't pretend to have the solution. But what we can control is understanding and supporting these people when they come back to us.

Moral Injury

In my last episode, I talked about moral injury and the implication is has on a person’s soul to act in misalignment to their values, morals, and beliefs. As you might imagine, this is a common occurrence in the military. From the obvious tasks involved in combat to the more nuanced, day-to-day struggles that comprise military life. From the emotional, physical, and mental abuses suffered to the execution of a mission, service members are constantly faced with making decisions that they would never make in any other circumstance. We can all relate to that to some degree, but usually with less intensity. It’s important that we hold more compassion for our veterans in the realm of moral injury; understanding that their trauma isn’t just about being hypervigilent for their safety or grieving their losses, but that in war they may have met the darkest parts of themselves and now have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

One of the best things we can do for our veterans is listen and hear their truth, and deal with whatever discomfort we have to endure in order to do so. It's the very least we can do. We did not have to face what they’ve faced, but we can help them feel less alone by not reacting so uncomfortable or dismissively to their pain. It’s unfair to expect a veteran to simply bounce back to civilian life, to hop back into being a parent, to be the partner you always knew them to be, to not react completely differently to every new challenge placed in front of them. Make some space for their experiences, withhold judgment. I know it’s not easy, I know you don’t know what to say or ask. And as a nation we have to do better about how we support military families, as well. Because they're sacrificing a lot for this country, as well. And that's part of why I wanted to start having this conversation.


It's all so relevant when we talk about feeding the feminine - we have to nurture these guys. We've got to give them some love and some support. What they're struggling with, in part, is reconnecting to their emotionality, their empathy. Not only was it trained out of them, they also then had traumatic experiences that doubled-down on the idea that there's no value or space or time for emotions. But as human beings trying to reconnect to people and their civilian purpose, they need to reignite that and it's really hard and terrifying. It's like they're learning how to walk all over again but it can be hard to know how.

Some Things to Avoid

Thank You For Your Service

There's really good intention behind this and we know that. And again, I don't speak for all veterans so maybe don't stop saying this altogether, but just think about this. When we say “thank you for your service” - it's not a bad sentiment and it's meant well, but if you’re going to say it, it’s best to have something tangible to back it up. These words feel empty to many veterans. Because they’re likely struggling in some way and the re-acclimation process feels impossible, they might feel like a failure. And they know that civilians don't really know what's happening in our military affairs, or what traumas they're holding. So the "thank you for your service" can start to feel dismissive, like it's an obligation, something you need to say but you don't really care, or you do care, but only insofar as it's convenient. Maybe there’s more you can offer than these words of affirmation.

Have You Ever Killed Anyone?

I would really caution against asking a veteran if they’ve killed anyone. I guess it depends on the setting. If you're trying to create an environment where you're saying "I'm open to hearing what you're experience was, I want to know what you went through and I can handle. I want you to be able to share that, not because I want you to relive it but because I recognize that you already are reliving it anyway, it's inside of your body, and you're someone I care about and I don't want you to feel like you have to carry that secret for the rest of your life. So if you want to talk to me about it, I can handle it." I think this can be a harmless question, really, and maybe even one deriving from morbid curiosity or, at best, a way to let a veteran know you understand they may have had to do that.

But put yourself in their shoes. There’s no good way to answer that question, and it’s understandable for a veteran to feel a little exploited by it, as though you’ll take that very intimate information and never see them the same way again. This is a question that will now define them to you forever but that you have no context for never being in that situation, never having to defend yourself that way, or see the things they've seen, or feel the degree of intensity against your survival that they have. Warriors have to make hard choices. The best way to let them know that you’re able and willing to hear about those hard choices is to say something like “I understand that I can never understand what you've been through and I won't pretend it would be easy to hear about but I don't want you to feel that you have to be ashamed of this or that it would make me uncomfortable to hear of your experiences. It may make me uncomfortable but I can tolerate that so that you're not suffering alone.” Invite them into that conversation. And then give them space because they may not be ready, and they may never be ready, but even just putting that out there might make them feel a little closer to you and less like they have to isolate because they're ashamed or misunderstood. 

Expecting a Smooth Reintegration

I think another thing to avoid is expecting them to pick up where they left off. Military families go through a lot while their loved ones are deployed or on active duty. There is no doubt that we also need to better support the families of service members who sacrifice a lot for this country, as well. So it’s understandable that these families, who’ve had to keep living their lives in the absence of a parent or partner or friend, are anxious for things to get back to normal. But I think the important piece is to accept that there’s a new normal. That your veteran is not just going to resume their civilian lifestyle as though it was uninterrupted. We expect them to just know how to love us again and sometimes they can't. Sometimes they can't love themselves anymore, at least not how they maybe used to. And I think a lot of times they look at the drama of civilian life where the perspective is skewed and it pales in comparison to what they've experienced on deployment. The stakes are lower here in the civilian world and yet there's still big reactivity that veterans don't get.

Being Unaware of PTSD Symptoms and Suicide Warnings

I think that, considering the statistics of suicide among active duty service members and veterans alike one thing that we can all do for everybody really, is whether or not you personally have struggled with suicidal ideation or you know somebody who has, become a little bit more familiar with what warning signs of suicidal thoughts are, we can be a little bit more helpful to the people around us. That's not to say that that's our responsibility or our burden or that it's our fault if someone we know and love takes their own life. But it's another way that we can just sort of meet them in this community space and say "I see you and I know what to look for and so I can try to intervene if I see these things." 


Obviously our veterans are going to have different warning signs for suicide then than a civilian will. For veterans include feelings of hopelessness, that there's no reason to live withdrawing from friends and family, frequent talk of death, contemplation of ways to kill oneself, self destructive or high-risk behaviors. But keep in mind that combat veterans may inherently being drawn to high-risk behaviors given their familiarity with hyperarousal. So getting a little bit of a deeper understanding of the complexities of combat experiences and PTSD can be helpful. Anger and rage are also connected to PTSD. Also sleeplessness, anxiety, mood swings, isolation -- so all these behaviors may not necessarily indicate an imminent risk of suicide but they still may require some help. The VA does offer some resources online but you can also seek out therapeutic support for yourself or for your veteran to help bridge the gap. Because there's a lot that can be processed in there and a lot of skills and tools that can be provided to help mitigate some of the crises that can come up. So has a resource locator to find local resources. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline actually has VA-linked responders who can help provide support related to the military experience for veterans or service members in crisis. That number is 1-800-273-8255. If you dial that number and press 1 you will get the veteran crisis line which is veteran-specific help. 

Coming Together 

So as citizens I think that there are some tweaks and changes here and there that we can make to help make the transition a little bit easier, even if it is just being aware of the depth in the gravity of what they've experienced and that they're still holding it with them. It doesn't just go away because they're back home. 


And I think this is one incarnation where we can connect the masculine and feminine to provide support to those who are our nation's uniform, where we can meet them where they're at so they don't feel so alone. Harnessing our feminine for them can actually go a longer way than we expect. Because even if the feminine was trained out of our military members, they're still human they still emote, they still yearn to connect. It doesn't just go away but it doesn't feel safe for them anymore given the experiences that they've had. So we can meet them there, we can acknowledge and respect and honor that they don't feel safe. We can show them compassion, we can help them reconnect to their own compassion. We can listen to them without prying but also without glossing over their pain in their confusion in the nuances of what they've experienced. And we can consider their unique needs and think twice about the environments that we create so we don't ignore those needs. We can read more about their service, the current events of it, we can be patient with them and not expect them to be who they were before they enlisted. We can donate food, clothing, and other critical resources to local organizations that serve homeless veterans. There's a lot more that we can do. And there are more resources to follow. I'll continue to talk about this and provide resources, because we're constantly learning about new things that we can be doing to help these folks.

As always thank you for listening for showing up. If you enjoyed this episode and want to explore more, you can subscribe for updates on upcoming episodes as well as head over to where you can join the mailing list to stay in the loop. You can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram @thehungryfeminine. Thanks again for being here, see you next time.